One Piece speculation
Mar. 21st, 2009 01:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rainsometimesI have a long-winded theory about what Zoro’s current manga situation might mean for his development as a fighter particularly. Posting it here in case anyone else wants to see it.
Okay, so the last we saw of Zoro was him arriving in the gothic castle where Kuma had previously sent Perona, and then him waking up in a bed all bandaged up by Perona, who nevertheless refused to bring him his swords. What Perona’s reasons were for not letting him bleed to death can only be speculated on. Maybe she plans to hand him over to the World Government for the bounty and/or to be in their good graces. Maybe she wants to make a servant out of him, alone and unattended as she’s been in the castle. Maybe she even plans to co-operate with him in getting away from there and somewhere else, though that seems unlikely.
In any case, it seems a bet that Perona will at least initially have little trouble keeping Zoro under her thumb, even when he’s recovered. Anytime he does something she doesn’t like she can just hit him with a negative ghost attack. But are things likely to stay that way? Most likely not. Given what Zoro is like and what Oda tends to do with him, I doubt young Lolonoa will remain neutralised for long. Admittedly as a biased Usopp fan I didn’t like to think that at first, as I’d like Perona to stay a powerful enemy and not someone that anyone in the crew can beat. But I got past that and realised Zoro will probably find some way to overcome the ghost princess’ powers.
So how will he do that? The speculations I’ve seen mostly concern Zoro developing his willpower and overcoming his inner insecurities in order to negate the effect of the ghosts – maybe also by developing this haki thing that’s all the rage these days. ;) The reasoning behind this view appears to come down to:
a) willpower can overcome anything, at least if you’re Zoro;
and/or
b)Perona’s powers work by exaggerating people’s existing insecurities – if you don’t have any of those, she can’t hurt you.
Personally I disagree with this line of thinking, partly because of how I think Perona’s powers work, partly and more because I don’t think that’s what Zoro needs in terms of character development. –Of course, Oda could well still do this and it might turn out just great. I guess chiefly I’m talking about what I want to happen rather than being presumptuous enough to foretell future events.
The Zoro bit first: Despite never having fully recovered from the severe injuries inflicted by Kuma on Thriller Bark, Zoro hasn’t really let up since then. He kept pushing himself harder, first while training on the ship (talking to himself about how weak he was), and then in fights against the Flying Fish Riders and at Sabaõndy. Of course, that’s par for the course when it comes to Zoro – but for once, his normal approach hasn’t been paying off. His wounds started acting up on him already when he fought Duval’s crew. Then on Sabaondy (after having been shot by a World Noble and beating lots of fodder Marines) the fight against the first Pacifista wore him right down, so that Kizaru’s subsequent beam shot rendered him utterly helpless.
From what I can see, at this point physical training and sheer stubborn determination isn’t enough for Zoro. What he needs to do to get to the next level is spiritual development, I think, the kind he got when fighting Daz Bones and learning how to cut steel. And that’s where Perona’s powers come in.
As far as I can tell, the way Perona’s negative ghosts seem to work is that they attack all your confidence and self-esteem, negating them to put you in a condition of feeling absolutely worthless – a temporary state lasting for perhaps a minute or so, during which you’re completely helpless, with a fighting spirit below zero.
Maybe it’s a case of complete polarisation, so that the more “positive” you are normally – i.e. the stronger confidence and fighting spirit you have – the more “negative” you become. Maybe not – might be that the level of negativity is the same for everyone. Perona does seem to think that everyone has a “positive” value just by keeping on living every day, or so she thought before meeting Usopp. It’s impossible to say how many people she’s fought to base that opinion on, of course.
In any case, there’s no hint the ghosts can be resisted with sheer willpower. I’d say Luffy and Zoro were humongously strong in willpower by Thriller Bark, and Sanji and Franky were no slouches in that department either. Yet none of them could do anything against the ghosts. If anything, I’d think an increase in willpower will only render you more positive, not less, so I doubt that’s the way to shake off the ghosts.
Even so, I still think Zoro will use his will in order to win, but in the same way he did while fighting Daz Bones – by not letting up, throwing himself against the enemy as soon as he can move again, until he reaches the epiphany that lets him show the way.
Now, I doubt Zoro will learn how to be negative yet able to stand up and fight, the way Usopp can. Granted, he likely does feel a lot lower than he normally does, given his recent utter defeat. But doing it the Usopp way probably takes years of conditioning. Plus, I think it goes against the grain of Zoro’s character. Instead, what I could picture is him learning to empty his mind of all will and all emotion, leaving him in a spiritual/emotional state of absolute zero. That way, he can let the ghosts pass through him without being affected, since there won’t be anything for the ghosts to negate. Then he’ll have to hold onto this state during his counterattack, which might not be too easy either.
Hopefully learning how to do that, and do it quickly, will also be beneficial to Zoro’s growth in other ways than just beating Perona, making him better at hearing “the breath of all things” and just be more spiritually aware in general. Because while Zoro does have that side of him, it might not be quite as developed as is often assumed. (For instance, he didn’t recognise Merry’s voice initially, insisting that boats couldn’t talk. He also didn’t seem to sense Luffy’s unconscious use of haki against Motobaro (Duval's bull).)
...so that's my speculation. Thoughts? I don’t tend to be right about this sort of thing, though – most likely Oda will do something entirely different.
Okay, so the last we saw of Zoro was him arriving in the gothic castle where Kuma had previously sent Perona, and then him waking up in a bed all bandaged up by Perona, who nevertheless refused to bring him his swords. What Perona’s reasons were for not letting him bleed to death can only be speculated on. Maybe she plans to hand him over to the World Government for the bounty and/or to be in their good graces. Maybe she wants to make a servant out of him, alone and unattended as she’s been in the castle. Maybe she even plans to co-operate with him in getting away from there and somewhere else, though that seems unlikely.
In any case, it seems a bet that Perona will at least initially have little trouble keeping Zoro under her thumb, even when he’s recovered. Anytime he does something she doesn’t like she can just hit him with a negative ghost attack. But are things likely to stay that way? Most likely not. Given what Zoro is like and what Oda tends to do with him, I doubt young Lolonoa will remain neutralised for long. Admittedly as a biased Usopp fan I didn’t like to think that at first, as I’d like Perona to stay a powerful enemy and not someone that anyone in the crew can beat. But I got past that and realised Zoro will probably find some way to overcome the ghost princess’ powers.
So how will he do that? The speculations I’ve seen mostly concern Zoro developing his willpower and overcoming his inner insecurities in order to negate the effect of the ghosts – maybe also by developing this haki thing that’s all the rage these days. ;) The reasoning behind this view appears to come down to:
a) willpower can overcome anything, at least if you’re Zoro;
and/or
b)Perona’s powers work by exaggerating people’s existing insecurities – if you don’t have any of those, she can’t hurt you.
Personally I disagree with this line of thinking, partly because of how I think Perona’s powers work, partly and more because I don’t think that’s what Zoro needs in terms of character development. –Of course, Oda could well still do this and it might turn out just great. I guess chiefly I’m talking about what I want to happen rather than being presumptuous enough to foretell future events.
The Zoro bit first: Despite never having fully recovered from the severe injuries inflicted by Kuma on Thriller Bark, Zoro hasn’t really let up since then. He kept pushing himself harder, first while training on the ship (talking to himself about how weak he was), and then in fights against the Flying Fish Riders and at Sabaõndy. Of course, that’s par for the course when it comes to Zoro – but for once, his normal approach hasn’t been paying off. His wounds started acting up on him already when he fought Duval’s crew. Then on Sabaondy (after having been shot by a World Noble and beating lots of fodder Marines) the fight against the first Pacifista wore him right down, so that Kizaru’s subsequent beam shot rendered him utterly helpless.
From what I can see, at this point physical training and sheer stubborn determination isn’t enough for Zoro. What he needs to do to get to the next level is spiritual development, I think, the kind he got when fighting Daz Bones and learning how to cut steel. And that’s where Perona’s powers come in.
As far as I can tell, the way Perona’s negative ghosts seem to work is that they attack all your confidence and self-esteem, negating them to put you in a condition of feeling absolutely worthless – a temporary state lasting for perhaps a minute or so, during which you’re completely helpless, with a fighting spirit below zero.
Maybe it’s a case of complete polarisation, so that the more “positive” you are normally – i.e. the stronger confidence and fighting spirit you have – the more “negative” you become. Maybe not – might be that the level of negativity is the same for everyone. Perona does seem to think that everyone has a “positive” value just by keeping on living every day, or so she thought before meeting Usopp. It’s impossible to say how many people she’s fought to base that opinion on, of course.
In any case, there’s no hint the ghosts can be resisted with sheer willpower. I’d say Luffy and Zoro were humongously strong in willpower by Thriller Bark, and Sanji and Franky were no slouches in that department either. Yet none of them could do anything against the ghosts. If anything, I’d think an increase in willpower will only render you more positive, not less, so I doubt that’s the way to shake off the ghosts.
Even so, I still think Zoro will use his will in order to win, but in the same way he did while fighting Daz Bones – by not letting up, throwing himself against the enemy as soon as he can move again, until he reaches the epiphany that lets him show the way.
Now, I doubt Zoro will learn how to be negative yet able to stand up and fight, the way Usopp can. Granted, he likely does feel a lot lower than he normally does, given his recent utter defeat. But doing it the Usopp way probably takes years of conditioning. Plus, I think it goes against the grain of Zoro’s character. Instead, what I could picture is him learning to empty his mind of all will and all emotion, leaving him in a spiritual/emotional state of absolute zero. That way, he can let the ghosts pass through him without being affected, since there won’t be anything for the ghosts to negate. Then he’ll have to hold onto this state during his counterattack, which might not be too easy either.
Hopefully learning how to do that, and do it quickly, will also be beneficial to Zoro’s growth in other ways than just beating Perona, making him better at hearing “the breath of all things” and just be more spiritually aware in general. Because while Zoro does have that side of him, it might not be quite as developed as is often assumed. (For instance, he didn’t recognise Merry’s voice initially, insisting that boats couldn’t talk. He also didn’t seem to sense Luffy’s unconscious use of haki against Motobaro (Duval's bull).)
...so that's my speculation. Thoughts? I don’t tend to be right about this sort of thing, though – most likely Oda will do something entirely different.
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-21 01:29 pm (UTC)But given that we know what her attacks are, it will have to be something related to that... And what you have thought of seems as likely as anything (except, well, for what I said above ::shakes respectful fist at Oda::)
It's weirdest to me that everyone seems to have been shot off in all these directions and, well okay yes in "real" life they really would all end up in random places that had little to do with specifically fostering some kind of personal/physical development. But this being a story... er, anyway, my point was that the degree of... severity, I guess, for each character is not the same. Robin's seems a hell of a lot worse than Sanji's, for example (barring Ero-cook's apparent horror of cross-dressers). And Zoro was the only one to end up with a character we already know.
Shounen storylines tend to run along the lines of "join us or die", which is to say that enemies are either beaten into oblivion or beaten into redemption, or at least switching sides. So maybe Zoro won't have to beat Perona after all, and she'll turn out to be an ally. (I hope not... I didn't like her that much. Course if she pulls a Bon Clay I might have to re-evaluate her.)
But I hope Zoro gets some more of the spiritual side of things soon. He's become basically a meat shield recently. I miss the "breath of all things" type of fights.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-22 02:47 pm (UTC)Complete digression: And as for the latest chapter... wow. But it kinda makes me wonder: out of all the people Luffy has met and subsequently bonded with, Bon Clay-Bentham seems to have the least reason to be devoted to him. The Strawhats helped him escape the Marines out of Alabasta, yes - but that was largely because he'd manouevred himself onto Merry. Then he got incredibly moved when he heard about them braving Marine ships just to meet a friend (Vivi, although he didn't know it was her) - enough move to provide a diversion and basically sacrifice himself and his crew for them. So... he's pretty much Luffy's friend forever because he admires Luffy's devotion to someone else, eh? It's a bit... I dunno. Maybe, at some level, he thinks it makes up for him doing lots of evil things in Crocodile's service./digression
The little glimpses we got of the Strawhats' current whereabouts were far too short to draw any real conclusions one way or the other, for me at least. We didn't even get to know whether Robin's cuffs were of normal iron/steel or of seastone, which obviously matters a lot as to how dire her situation is. Though even if it isn't seastone, she might still not find it very easy to escape - she'd need a ship, for once, plus her cover would likely be blown.
True... Perona might decide to co-operate with Zoro for pragmatic purposes, like Buggy and Mr 3 wrt Luffy; and maybe they will fight some new danger together which could lead to some real bonding. But I still want spiritual development for Zoro, though.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-23 12:32 am (UTC)Goes to show I'm out of touch, very much, and kinda dim too, lol, because while I knew in the back of my mind that they were in there, I never really put two and two together--missed all the chatter too, I guess.
It is true that Robin may just be going along with something, and all--but my first reaction was a giant ACK sort of thing. I'm very gripped by the current events but oh GOD I want to know about everyone else!!
And here's to spiritual Zoro! ::clinks glass::
By the way, I watched that filler ep and... awwwwww. <33333 That one's a keeper. The only part I found a bit too silly was Brook scrubbing Nami's map--I think he should know better! But it's easy enough to just go with it, after all, the poor fellow doesn't know how to live with others again quite yet.
Luffy + Usopp sleeping almost killed me with cute. And I grinned at Usopp and Franky tangled up after the cannon mishap :D
no subject
Date: 2009-03-22 08:39 am (UTC)The fact that Zoro's pretty much incapacitated here also speaks for him getting some kind of spiritual enlightenment - he's going to be forced to take it easy for a while, and that in itself could lead to some soul-searching. And if Perona tries to rule over him, he's going to have to do something, and some kind of "zero" mental state does seem in line with his previous experience against Mr. 1.
Then again, there's absolutely no predicting what Oda will do, and it'll probably be awesome anyway. ^_^ I really wonder what Perona does want to keep Zoro alive for...
no subject
Date: 2009-03-22 02:53 pm (UTC)He'd also need to increase his speed, because those ghosts are damn fast - they got Zoro, Sanji, Franky and Usopp after they all knew how dangerous they were and were trying to outrun them and dodge them.
Then again, there's absolutely no predicting what Oda will do, and it'll probably be awesome anyway.
That seems very likely, yes. Oda doesn't always deliver, IMO, but certainly often enough.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-18 10:23 pm (UTC)NOTE: I've been watching the anime, and when the anime stops, I've caught up with the manga that way. This will leave gaps and things inserted that weren't in the manga, so if I end up stumbling onto one of those, please forgive me? :D?
1. From what I saw of Perona, she was lonely and she wanted servants around. It's quite possible that either (A) she will use her negative ghosts to keep Zoro docile (Ep. 421, I believe, shows this to a great extent; hell, she even dressed Zoro up to look like Bearsy). And yet, there's a part where Zoro's wandering off, trying to find the exit, and she ends up yelling at him that, "The exit's that way, stupid!" or something similar. She's not even sure why she does it, but she still did it. It's quite possible that Zoro might be able to knock some sense into her, and if she won't join him in leaving the castle, she'll at least stop being a hindrance while he's trying to do so.
2. My personal theory as to why Usopp was able to withstand Perona's negative ghosts is because he's a pessimist. Where the other crew members are going, "Ow, that hurt! I'll just try harder!", Usopp will be the one thinking, "Shit, I need another strategy. His cowardice in the face of enemies (especially overwhelming odds) is a result of his realizing the situation, and just how nasty it can turn on him. He's not a powerhouse like everyone else. If he takes enough damage, he will die, and no amount of optimism can bring people back from the dead. Usopp knows just how powerless he is, especially against the really powerful enemies they've encountered in the last few story arcs, and he's scared.
Zoro doesn't have that problem. His goal is to become the best swordsman in the world. Hell, when he realized that he couldn't defeat Mihawk the last time the two met, Zoro turns around and says, "Okay, here. Taking an attack to my back would be disgraceful." Zoro's a powerhouse, but I don't think it's ever occurred to him to be negative about anything. If he dies, he dies -- he's accepted that. He's not going to try to pull back and think of a strategy. It's usually, "Hit first, hit during, hit after, and maybe remember to ask a question or two after the bodies are on the ground."
There's no doubt in himself in Zoro's mind, and I'm thinking that seed of doubt is what makes Usopp immune to Perona's attack, whereas everyone else is immediately weakened.
Personally, I don't think that Zoro's ever going to realize his mortality and start thinking smarter instead of hitting things harder -- it may just be that Perona ends up joining him out of a fear of being left alone (better to be with someone you hate than alone), but it would be nice to see Zoro give things a good long think, especially since he wasn't able to stop Kuma from throwing him from Sabaody.
If Zoro had been around to see the rest of the crew being thrown, he might not have had the meltdown Luffy did, but there would definitely be a sense of, "Hell, what good am I if I can't stop this from happening?" line of thinking.
Then again, I could be totally wrong.
rambling on
Date: 2009-10-19 08:23 pm (UTC)But I agree, looking at the anime plus Zoro's cover arc makes it seem less likely that Zoro will need to overcome negative ghosts as I had assumed (as did a great many other speculators as well ;)). They may decide to co-operate in which case it doesn't matter (much) if Zoro stays vulnerable to negative ghosts. Instead, he may well get his much-needed power-up from someone or something else entirely. Personally, I still hope there'll be some spiritual development, but who knows...
He's not a powerhouse like everyone else. If he takes enough damage, he will die, and no amount of optimism can bring people back from the dead. Usopp knows just how powerless he is, especially against the really powerful enemies they've encountered in the last few story arcs, and he's scared.
That's true. Well, except for Nami, who's no powerhouse either, and actually seems less durable than Usopp. But she tends to be realistic about her abilities rather than pessimistic - and most particularly, her self-esteem in general is quite healthy and has been so ever since Arlong's defeat. Probably because she doesn't identify herself as a warrior, but is secure in her own worth based on other things, including fighting with all her heart when she has to./tangent
There's no doubt in himself in Zoro's mind, and I'm thinking that seed of doubt is what makes Usopp immune to Perona's attack, whereas everyone else is immediately weakened.
I agree with your descriptions of Zoro and Usopp, but I doubt most of the people that Perona's faced over the years have had no doubt in themselves. Even among the male Strawhats, Sanji and Franky have shown doubt at time, I think. So while self-doubt is probably part of it, I don't think that's all of it. I'd say Usopp's immunity probably has something to do with a very low self-esteem in general and a low opinion of his own fighting abilites in particular, while still actually being a fighter even so. (It doesn't seem to have anything to do with being 'negative' about things that aren't about fighting and strength - Usopp is frequently a very enthusiastic character.)
but it would be nice to see Zoro give things a good long think, especially since he wasn't able to stop Kuma from throwing him from Sabaody.
If Zoro had been around to see the rest of the crew being thrown, he might not have had the meltdown Luffy did, but there would definitely be a sense of, "Hell, what good am I if I can't stop this from happening?" line of thinking.
That's what I've been thinking all along, but I've been afraid he might be too hard on himself, as he tends to be, rather than maybe realising part of his trouble was that he pushed himself way too early with training despite his wounds after Thriller Bark.
And also, that he'll just keep thinking, "Bad Zoro, weak Zoro! Must be stronger, must push myself MORE MORE MORE!!" ;)
In the midst of battle, once, he had a spiritual epiphany when he was close to death, without which he'd have lost and died. That was when he learned to cut steel. But he was guided by an old lesson he recalled from his sensei, Kuina's father. Maybe he does need some kind of pointer from someone else at this point, maybe it's not something that can be done only by insight...
Re: rambling on
Date: 2009-10-19 09:11 pm (UTC)Now, I'm not sure if it's stated in the manga why Sogeking is created, but from what I gathered in the anime, Sogeking was created because Usopp himself didn't feel worthy of joining the crew when they went to rescue Robin. What resulted is the fact that yes, Sogeking was there to help, and he showcased a lot of Usopp's strengths (Taking out Marines on the Bridge of Hesitation from the Tower of Justice? Talk. About. Daaaamn.). For whatever reason, that mask allowed Usopp to tap into his strengths, and not get scared of what was happening.
Ironically enough, at the turning point in the battle between Luffy and Lucci, when Luffy's just about had it and Lucci's going to go after everyone else? It's Usopp who gets Luffy back on his feet again, not Sogeking.
Sogeking's reappearance in Thriller Bark ended up showing that, um, Usopp might be showing signs of a split personality. This is the first time I've seen such a thing in an anime/manga without some kind of demonic possession, but I thought it was handled well. Usopp wants to run like hell, but Sogeking is what gets him to turn around and deal with the problem.
But. That was a big tangent, and I like talking about Sogeking's existence and the effect on Usopp waaay too much. Sorry... *wilt*
I remember reading somewhere that Zoro tends to act like an eldest brother in the Straw Hat family, and that might include a sense of feeling responsible for everyone else. Hence, the fact that he's hard on himself. Luffy had a meltdown after he saw the rest of his nakama Kuma-thrown. I agree that Zoro would've acted just like you said, that he'd be too hard on himself if he'd been the last to be taken out. The fact that he's first is a blessing for at least two reasons: (A) he doesn't have the overwhelming guilt of seeing everyone thrown, and (B) he was still seriously freaking injured, so taking him out first means less of a chance that he'd be permanently messed up.
Even when he had the epiphany against Daz Bones, it was that he was remembering what someone else told him. So, if he's got anymore lessons that he didn't necessarily pay attention to at the time, that would be good. What would be intriguing is if someone on the crew had said something to him that stuck somehow, and that becomes an epiphany. I'll keep my fingers crossed, and pet the Zoro plushie very gently, because he needs to rest up, dammit.
Sorry for the Sogeking tangent. *blush*
Re: rambling on
Date: 2009-10-19 09:39 pm (UTC)It probably would be worse for Zoro if he'd been teleported later, yeah. Physically too, as you point out! But either way, he was out of commission and couldn't help any of the others. I suspect he'll still blame himself for that. *sigh* I just REALLY hope he'll let himself heal properly this time around.